Victorian Book of the Dead

[serenitysgirl]

When I was a child my mum lost a baby at one month and 8 days old. she has a photo of her in her casket looking so peaceful. Earlier this year my dad's mum passed away and my 1st DD wanted to say goodbye at the funeral home with me ( nobody told her she asked to) so after much hard thinking I allowed her to go. My Mum used the photograph of my sister in order to prepare DD what she would see and although it was hard to see it again it did help my dd to understand what she would be facing. As it was she was so brave and such a caring little supporter to me. All in all I think photos like the ones on the link although hard on the emotions at times have their purpose in helping those left behind not to fear death.

[Stash Keeper]

It's not often,anywhere, to get a frank discussion about death like the one posted here so thanks to everyone for sharing in this way.
It is a very personal thing, no universal right or wrong.
For me, like many others on here tonight,the issues of photographing still born and neonatal death babies and older people are very different. I think I would have loved something 'real', tangible to cherish, as an only picture of the baby I lost twenty years ago. As it is I saw nothing, held nothing, mourn still a baby with no identity. I was blessed with 2 lovely boys later -but guiltily still feel sorrow at that loss.
My friends family took photo's and videos of the whole funeral- from the open casket to the last mourner going home and did not find that odd- think she said in African Carribean heritage families it's not unusual. The topic came up very recently as my uncle passed to me a scrapbook he had made about our family and in it were photos of my nan, my mum and my dad in their coffins. My husband saw the book first and took them out so I didn't have to see them-he knew I would not want to and he was extemely shocked and upset. Now this is not because I fear death. I don't. My lovely mum and dad, youngsters though they were, both died cradled in the arms of my sister and I almost 12 months apart to the day. They had been diagnosed with cancer in the same week. We were privilaged to support them through their last moments. Death is not pretty, not romantic and until the very last breath is breathed not very peaceful either. It's the worst that can happen and truly it is not frightening. What it is, I think, is very private, and when your body has been relinquished it should be treated with the utmost respect and dignity. I chose their clothes,visited them both to make sure they were as they would want to be, and my children chose to see them to say goodbye and laid presents in their coffins. We were as upfront, open and hands on about death as we could be-but I didn't want photos. And I feel sad they were photographed. They didn't give permission and it seems to me to be an indignity, a final violation.
We have photos of them when they were alive- from childhood through to their last weeks-beautiful even though poorly- and these I cherish.- One day I will put them into books which I will cherish too.
We did photograph the flowers and keep the cards-these were beautiful tributes- and people caring seemed to help a bit.
Sorry for the long and self-indulgent post. Never written any of it down before.
Finally,when all is said and done-it's each to his own.

[Dragonfly Jane]

This is a really interesting thread and I have been reading it on and off allnight.

Personaly I'd say no for myself, losing my mum was the most traumatic moment of my life and when i went to see her in the chapel of rest she no longer looked like my mum, the image i had of her last few days has took me over a year to get out of my head and it's still there sometimes, so no i def. would not like a photo as she was then.

But haveing said that on the day of the funneral a very good friend came up with camera in her hand and asked if i wanted photos taken during the get together afterwards and flowers etc. It really was not something i had thought about but i'm am so glad i said yes. The day was a bit of a blur but the photos show mum's friends and family, all the lovely flowers and wishes she got and the balloons we let off for her. I do like to look at them they remind me of my mums spirit if that makes sense and how much people loved her, I can not at the moment face scrapping them but i have them safe in a box i decorated which also has the cards and things in.

So in a way I can understand the Victorians, when photos were scarce wanting a lasting reminder of their loved ones, and i don't see anything morbid in it. I only had a quick look at the photos on the link because somehow they seemed private and it was like i was intruding iykwim but the ones i looked at seems to be very peaceful and calm. I do think that the Victorians and past generations in general had a much different view to us to death, it was a lot more common then and something that was seen as natural but now days it is like a taboo subject and people just don't want to talk about it, or maybe we do if this thread is anything to go by, but we are made to feel that it is wrong.

I have visited the local cematery a number of times to take photos and look for family history information and the one thing that always strikes me is the respect given to the departed in times past even the decoration on grave stones has different meanings. I almost get the feeling now that death is something people are ashamed off and i think we are not brought up to cope with what is in the end something perfectly natural.

[Stash Keeper]

I agree with you. The 'party' afterwards was a sad but lovley celebration to my parents lives and we didn't think to take photos. I can't remember who was there or exactly what happened. I 'm glad DH can so can tell me if I ask.
As for the pictures in my head-I don't think I'll ever get rid of them now...

[keltikween]

I have found this thread quite thought provoking and thank everyone for sharing their thoughts on this matter and for opening it up in the first place.

I did look at the link and found the majority of pictures to be very calm and almost beautifully peaceful.

Having lost a baby some years ago, I was never offered the option of a photo. I now think it would have been helpful to have one...dont think I would have ever shared it but it would have been mine. I might have scrapped so that I secured their place in our family history.

Both my parents died in the last few years. I saw both of them after their passing (I live 400 miles away, Mum died just before I arrived so they left her in the room for me to be with as I had 'missed her' she looked peaceful, Dad died suddenly just before Xmas and as we had to travel it was afew days before we saw him...I wish I hadnt now but thats just me) We never took any pics, it never occurred to me probably as in my experience I hadnt seen it happen previously but considering the amount of pics we had of them alive due to cameras being so commonplace now, I am not sure there would have been a benefit to us.

My brother took some photos in the days after the funerals and to be honest everytime I come across them, it brings it all back. I only have to see our sad, grief stricken faces or the flowers and everything stirs again.

I am a real believer in never judging anyone especially when it comes to emotions like grief and how we deal with it. There are so many cultural differences never mind individual ones too...we just need to be accepting and open minded of other peoples ways to cope and mourn.

[valeriej]

This has certainly got me thinking this morning. I have looked at some of the examples and I feel sadness, how sad for the families of those youngsters. I wasn't so keen on some of the photos though.

I used to feel death was morbid, scary and not something to think about. A few years ago I went to see my neighbour after she died (I felt it was something I had to do, to say goodbye) - I was scared, but the receptionist from the funeral parlour went in with me. I realised then that death is nothing to be scared about, she wasn't there it was just her body.

I was there when my darling Dad passed away in 2005. He looked so serene laid there in hospital he could just have been asleep. I also saw him at the funeral home in his coffin. It didn't look much like Dad and I knew it wasn't him, his spirit had left it was just his shell. I was glad I saw him because I then didn't have visions of Dad's spirit being there because I could see it wasn't him - had to explain really. It helped. I don't think I'd have liked to have taken a photo though, may be in the hospital but not one of his body in the coffin - it just wasn't him as I knew him. I needed that closure though.

My husband did take photos at the funeral of the mourners, of the flowers, and during the celebration of Dad's life (he's American and apparently it's normal to do this - at his Mom's funeral they took videos, photos and some of her in her casket).

Last year I created an album in memory of Dad and the last two pages were devoted to "memoriam" with a poem and photos of the funeral flowers, even a photo of his grave a year on.

[Insomniac]

I'm very much of the opinion that it's such a personal thing that there can be no right or wrong thing to do-it's just whatever's right for the person concerned.

However, I'm extremely grateful to Honeymaker for raising the subject. My mum is in the advanced stages of Alzheimer's disease, and for anyone who doesn't have personal knowledge of the illness, there's a "look" in the eyes of a person with Az. My sister and I describe it as the "dead fish eye" look. Unfortunately my mum's had that for a few years.
I actively avoid taking photos of mum these days, because it's hard enough to see her like this in life, without having a photographic reminder.
However, thanks to this thread, when mum's time comes, if she looks more like "my mum" again, maybe I'll have the presence of mind to think to take a photo, obviously depending on the circumstances.

My mum recently had a stroke and has been dignosed with Alzeimers. I have only been allowed to see her once since it happened in June,and took the oppurtunity of taking photos of her with my youngets child as I have none-there has been a rfit in my fmaily since he was 6 weeks old.

My mum looks very different to how she did but not as bad as I feared iykwim,so I find the photos very comforting. She is however only in the early stages of the disease.

I have recently started an album of her and have scrappeed a photo of her when she was young and beautiful. I would not want a photo of her upon death as I know that she is going to look totally different after being ravaged by this disease,and as others have said that isn't the memory they want of their loved ones long term.

I personally would not be taking photos of my loved ones after death and wouldn't scrap them either,despite what I have said about not being fazed by death. My memory is pretty poor as I get older ( I blame stress,but think it's the rapidly approaching menopause!) and I want my meomory boosted of the good times.

I have no probs with people having the opposite view however-each to their own. The victorians did have some strange fascinations and taboos,but that was down to the age and what was happening historically. I expect future generations might find us extremely odd!

[madhattermillie]

after reading through i have to add . . . .

i think these photos are fascinating, not for the subject matter, but for the technical perfection of the photos with the lack of technology available at the time.

however, when my dad passed away, i saw him at the hospital and again at the funeral home, and in a way wish that i had taken photos. his death was sudden and a shock to everyone, but he just looked so peaceful, infact i stood there thinking 'wrap him up, he's cold' and waiting for him to let out a big snore!! when i think back now, i can just remember him being at peace, small details, and it seeming like he was asleep. if i had taken photos i wouldnt have scrapped them, they would probably have been put away somewhere, until years down the line when i could remember less then than i do now, i would have had a sneaky peek.

and someone earlier said about the polish, my mothers family are polish and i believe it is customary to photograph the funeral, and at times the open coffin. i remember my mum mentioning this a while back, there were photos sent to people who could not make it to poland for the funerals.

[cw18]

OK, so I'm going to start with a disclaimer of my own...... the picture and caption under my user name say it all really! I often find it ever harder to word things as I mean them (and so at not to cause offence) in type than verbally, and I'm bad enough in a face-to-face chat at times!!



If someone believes having such a photo would be a comfort later on, then I don't believe it to be "wrong" to take one. I took a quick look at the original links, and certainly didn't find them discomforting, although how I'd feel about having such pictures of my ancestors on the Internet I'm not sure.

Personally I can only say with certainty that I would want one were we to lose a baby in the family. An earlier post mentions photos of babies that were not fully developed but that were kept on open show..... this I would find very uncomfortable, and gut instinct tells me I would find it impossible to visit such a home unless the photos were put away for the duration. However, I don't have a problem with the parents having them if find them helpful. And if I had any pics like these of children, then yes I'm pretty certain I would scrap them. These children are as much a part of the family as those who outlive me, and as such I believe they deserve a place in whatever format of family record you keep -- be it a family bible or a scrapbook.

With regards to older members of the family, I don't honestly know. Several people have said how different their loved ones look once laid out, but I've never seen (let alone visited) a loved one after they passed away.

My maternal grandmother died when I was almost 15, so that may have been the choice of my parents. My paternal grandmother died the day after my 16th birthday, and I wasn't even allowed to attend the funeral (something I've never forgiven my parents for) as it was considered too far for me to travel alone (Lancashire to Kent), my Dad was already there, and my parents considered it more important for my brother and I to attend school/college which meant my Mum had to stay at home - so no-one to accompany me on trains. My paternal grandfather died when I was was in my early 20's (I think), and is another I didn't attend due to the Lancashire/Kent distance -- but I was never really close to him, and didn't even ask too. My maternal grandfather died when I was 26, but despite being local nothing was ever mentioned. Have to say I don't even know which funeral home took care of him even though I did attend the funeral along with my 2 older children (DS2 was under 1, so stayed with the child minder as best I recall).

We have lost both of DHs parents since then (FIL shortly after, and MIL a few years later), and yet again the subject of 'visiting' never came up. The closest I came was being in the hospital when MIL was 'pronounced', but I didn't go in to see her. Never even thought about it beyond feeling that with DH, his sister and their 2 brothers all being present there were already too many people to get in the way of the staff.

If I'm totally 100% honest I think I'd have to say I don't think I'd ever want to visit, and am totally dreading the time when I will be the person in charge of all the arrangements. DH was diagnosed with cancer in January, and there have been several times during the year when it looked like we were going to lose him. His consultant now thinks things have improved enough to be optomistic, but it did dawn on me during the 'downs' that I have NO idea of what he would want in terms of a funeral. He's not religious, but seemed happier to get married in Church and was more than happy for DS2 to be christened (my others having been done before I met DH). He actually seemed to think it 'odd' that my brother has decided against Christenings for my nephews.

This thread has reminded me that, once the dust settles at home, I really need to sit down with him and discuss the subject of funerals in details. I guess viewings and photos should also be part of that discussion. I've been thinking about this while while typing (and judging by how long it's taken to type out it's going to be a long post - sorry!) and I have to say I don't think I'd particularly want those I leave behind to visit me. However, in case they thought it would help them with their grief I wouldn't ever put in writing it wasn't to be allowed -- although I do think this is in part due to the fact that DS1 is now in the Army, so even with a few hours warning that death was approaching I very much doubt he could get back from a posting,, plus once he gets sent abroad (Germany next year for his first) we're not likely to see him as often and I don't want to leave any of my children feeling guilty that they didn't visit often enough or left things unsaid (which is how I feel about my maternal grandmother, as I lost my temper with her on my last visit and never apologised properly).

[scrap-happyuk]

A very thought provoking thread ladies

I can understand the reason behind the photo's the Victorians took, as for many of them it would have been their only photo ever with their child, however I see sadness in the living's eyes as I am sure they would have wanted pictures of a happier time.

If I had had the misfortune of losing a baby at birth, then yes I would want photos, but as for adults - I just don't think it would be for me and my family, especially as I am permanently taking photos everyday - I wouldn't want a permanent record of a relatives fight for life until their last breath.

[keltikween]

Another thought came to me...

On a recent trip to see my inlaws...my DH and DD's were taken to see the grave of DH's GF who passed about 7 years ago. On the grave was mention of a baby sister he knew nothing about who had been born before him and passed shortly after birth. It was all a bit of a shock to him.

With the awkwardness and the time laspe he hasnt felt able to talk to his parents about it. As an only child (he thought) it has made him think a lot about his sister and what she looked like etc. Would have been good to have a photo to show him. I know he would have liked that.

[claires22]

wow this is a thoughtful thread. Having looked at the pictures you can only feel sadness for these families and what they were going through. And it breaks my heart to think that the only photo that these people had of their loved one was after they had lost them.
I lost my son when he was one, and although in that year we took hundreds of photos of him, just before he had died a nurse came with some paint to do his footprints and a camera to take some last photos. At the time i remember thinking how strange it was that someone thought that i would actually want a photo of the worst time in my life. But she did take some of my DS and of me holding him before and after he had died then placed them in a book. Now these photos are still in that book along with pictures of the flowers and cards from the funeral. I hardly get this book out, i think its distressing. but maybe one day i will and its a comfort in a odd way having it there. And i think one day i will scrap them. Not now, as i dont think i am ready but i think if they were damaged by the book they are in i would be heart broken. I guess what im saying is that if you feel comfortable with taking photos then you sould as you might regret it later on.

[ally16]

Another thought came to me...

On a recent trip to see my inlaws...my DH and DD's were taken to see the grave of DH's GF who passed about 7 years ago. On the grave was mention of a baby sister he knew nothing about who had been born before him and passed shortly after birth. It was all a bit of a shock to him.

With the awkwardness and the time laspe he hasnt felt able to talk to his parents about it..

I have a similar story to this, I had a sister who died when I was a baby, she was only four and I was too young to remember her. Although I did know she existed (mainly due to having older sisters who did remember her) there were never any photos of her in the house and my mum and dad never talked about her. I still feel unable to talk about her to my mum to this day and since I'm doing the family history it has been a bit awkward. I think it's very sad that they never felt able to talk about her to us or have photos of her out.

[Helen M]

well, i have to be honest (again, i know!) but you've changed my view on this, i first thought that people who had these sorts of photos (apart from babies and children) were slightly perverse, but after reading everyone's responses and how you all felt when confronted with a death situation, it doesn't look so bad now. i don't think i could do it myself but understand now why people take photos, my own personal view is once someone has died, they're not there anymore, their spirit, if you like, has moved on, and what's left is just the shell. but i guess it still doesn't stop the living wanting to hold on to who they've always seen as being their friend/relative. very thought provoking this thread!

[HoneyMaker]

One of the things that touched me about the Victorian 'family shots' was that it is quite obvious this is the only photograph they may ever have of their 2 year old child. Therefore all the family dress in their sunday best and pose in a 'normal' family shot. They have smiles on their faces but sadness in their eyes. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to put aside your grief just to get that happy shot